Considering Player vs Player Community
Gaming April 27th. 2008, 12:09amIn the last six months there has been on-and-off discussion about Player vs Player (PvP) in MMO’s, such as this blog post at Hardcore Casual recently. Rarely have these discussions delved deeply into the topic of the needs and wants of PvP players (Broken Toys comes close). Alongside that, there has been little thought put into analysing the divergent types of PvP player present in the community. To lump all PvP players together in a single group is a quick way to disaster.
I’m going to overly generalise here and do a simple split into two groups that sit at the extreme ends of the scale. I’m deliberately ignoring other groups and group overlap for now. These two groups are used as a simple example, with the goal being to provoke thought and introduce a topic I will pursue in future blog posts.
The first extreme I’ll look at I’m labelling the “Competitive” group. You’ll find them mostly playing in separated arenas, either 1v1 or in small teams, though not always. The second is the “World” group. They have a preference for open world PvP and are generally found pursuing a form of PvP that can cause significant disruption to others.
The Competitive segment of the PvP community wants to be able to play a form of PvP where they know that their own personal skill and/or team skill is what counts. If at any point they feel that they are fighting against the game, and not their player opponents, then you have a failure for this group of players. Enjoyment comes from beating the other player, or losing a close-fought encounter. It does not come from beating the game, and it doesn’t come from beating the snot out of someone because the game gave you the win on a golden platter. I’ll discuss this more in depth in my next post, however in brief I believe firmly that for these players it is an absolute design no-no to use such things as unlocking systems or to force long grinds to obtain top-tier gear.
The World PvP community will generally be found in games with open world PvP. These players get a significant part of their PvP enjoyment out of victories that cause disruption of some sort. For some it’s deliberately malicious, while on other occasions it’s simply caused by the game design. In general, if the game is helping them achieve their goals because they’ve spent more time, are a higher level or have access to items/abilities others don’t then they will likely be happy. Unfortunately the type of PvP game design that allows these players to flourish will generally also scare away those who are on the receiving end more often than not.
So getting back to my point, it’s important that when designing a PvP system there is a need to identify the type of PvP you are intending to implement and never forget that there is no a single, unified, PvP community. Rather, there is a diverse range of player types present in that community just as there is a diverse range of player types within a PvE community. A PvP feature that is designed without considering which type, or types, of PvP player it is aimed at is a feature that is highly likely to fail.
Personally, I’ve never really enjoyed or been drawn to open world PvP. Largely because I fit firmly in the Competitive type I discussed above: I get my enjoyment out of winning or losing a match that started on a level playing field. I have a competitive streak and I thoroughly enjoy small team (4-8 player) competitive / arena PvP. In a few days I’ll come back to this topic and focus on some of my thoughts on what to avoid when designing a game with a competitive PvP feature.
10 Responses to “Considering Player vs Player Community”
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April 27th, 2008 at 19:57
So true on so many levels, although i have to admit i am generally more of the PvP noob. Maybe one day i will actually try out some more PvP.
May 12th, 2008 at 15:47
[…] on how your game should progress and where your priorities should be.( You might want to check out Alex Weekes’ blog where he discusses the same thing from a PvP angle). And because they love the game they are […]
May 28th, 2008 at 20:17
Head of nail, meet hammer. I’m definitely more of a competitive gamer like you, although if I happen to spot someone of the opposing faction in an open-pvp area I’ll not pass up the chance to hit them on the head.
I’m interested to know how much competitive PvP you’ve taken part in in City Of Heroes. Have you done any proper arena fights at all, or do you do all your PvPing in Guild Wars? When I say “proper” arena fights, I mean in a properly organized team rather than a pick-up fight. Do you think the system currently in place still holds up when taken to that extreme?
May 30th, 2008 at 02:36
Heya Xanthus,
I’ve not done any PvP in Cities as yet - I’m still working on finding what archetypes fit me best and such. I fully intend to dive into it as soon as I can, though of course it will be incognito when I do.
My most recent experience was while I was working at Auran on the Fury project. I’m overdue to write the next blog post I have in mind, which I suspect you’ll find interesting - it draws a lot on my experiences with Guild Wars and Fury. I’ll hopefully get that up this weekend (I told myself that last weekend as well, and failed).
June 3rd, 2008 at 08:16
Fascinating discussion. The only online gaming I’ve ever done is CoH and the PvP aspect of it has completely eluded me. In fact, I’ve never really understood why it’s so damned annoying to wander into a PvP zone for a bit of a look around, see the words “Assassin Strike” appear above your head and have to hit the Hosp button. I mean it’s just a game and I’m a (reasonably) well adjusted 40-something (well, as long as I dont skip the meds) but it drives me instantly to a state of teeth-grinding fury that normally requires a logout and large martini to get over.
I can play PvE for hours on end, get repeatedly stomped by trying to solo missions that I really shouldn’t have taken on in the first place and my sunny disposition never takes a hit. Any insights on what causes the rage?
June 3rd, 2008 at 11:19
I would hazard a guess that it would be linked to how much control you have over your own outcomes.
In the PvE case it was your choice, and you were in control the whole time: your choice to take on solo missions at a high difficulty, and your choices that led to you getting stomped on, for example making mistakes pulling mobs or making mistakes with your power usage.
Conversely, in a PvP map you lose a lot of that control. Especially when there’s a Stalker around capable of sending you to the Hospital before you even know it is there. It is your choice to enter the map, but from that point onwards the choices of others can and frequently will have an impact on what happens to you. You lose the element of 100% personal choice, and if someone else makes certain choices those choices can prevent you from doing what you, personally, want to do (your stated “for a bit of a look around).
June 5th, 2008 at 13:58
I think GR that you hit the nail with “I’m still working on finding what archetypes fit me best and such” - City PvP is centered around team PvP and not solo but there are those particular combinations which are exceptions to the rule, most of the are those which do multiple damage types and have a chance-to mez effect with them. I hear it about Stalkers in particular; an Energy Melee/ stalker has smashing/energy with a chance-to disorient. Add in the A-S move and you can be pretty much toast as you described above.
Now here’s the kicker - a year or so ago we had a great zone-PvP event and every zone got used in one day by dozens of heroes and villains, so much so that my PC actually overheated and died (seriously, not joking about that). It was a roleplaying zone event; yes roleplaying. However it did highlight that while the rewards are tempting, it’s the addage of “Strength in Numbers” that can win out.
Reasons I don’t PvP usually boil down to not making any victories, being outmatched and not wanting to lose over and over again and smack-talk. Now I know that some smack-talk betweeen friends is acceptable; they like to riff on each other and are usually evenly-matched but it’s when you get A-S’d out of nowhere and some (but not limited to a) stalker gloats over his victory in the most insulting way. It’s like “Yes, well done. You struck me in the back through your hide power and my lack of perception couldn’t see you superspeed up to me and hack me to pieces”. Conversely I’ve played Team Fortress 2 and laughed, despite the same guy incinerating me over and over. It was more fun because only two things affect how well I can retaliate - latency and pratice. I don’t like beign a part of something I detest so why would I bring others along to that?
In Recluse’s Victory I’ve had more fun using it as a co-op zone on both sides of the Atlantic. Met some lovely villains and we were barely a few feet apart having local chats with heavies on standby.
The problem is as you stated about there being levels of PvP player. Those that make it their life to PvP tend to put off the casual player who finds it more rewarding to do PvE content because the odds are in their favour and they can get more out of it. Unfortunately the only way to get round that would never happen except in Recluse’s Victory where Zone Control for your side can net you bonus prestige for PvP kills. Now that would be nice to see - prestige for PvP kills (I can dream).
June 5th, 2008 at 18:47
PvP in City of Heroes while exciting and fun ended up to fail in general due to the PvE orientation developers gave to it as well as abandoning it at some point and not upgrading it accordingly.I12 and still no rewards no map selection no proper ladder for pvp no reputation cap removal.Same old same old.
I think an upcoming game that has captured the essence of the above article tho is Warhammer.They managed to combine Competitive and World PvP in the most perfect way so far.
June 6th, 2008 at 04:31
I PvP in Cox sometimes, and my MMO experience is limited to Cox.
It is hard to articulate how the game needs to change PvP wise for me, but some changes are needed. Tainted Greek has stated most of it well, but melee seriously needs to fixed in PvP as it stands.
In the EU boards, someone (probably Tainted Greek) had the idea of melee PvPers having a “rush” type power. Sorry I cant find it or a link to it, but it was very well thought out and had some good ideas on how to improve PvP for melee types. Just spot on.
Pre I9 , PvP felt very much a rock-paper-scissors game with the skill of the players being the variable. Now in CoX, it seems that the sets or the build decide the victory, with the player skills being the secondary factor. Whoever wants to spend the time and game money on the recharge and set bonus’ will win the battle over the more casual gamer, pretty much all the time. Its hard to deal with, and unavoidable. I do like CoX to play PvP, PvE is just leveling now.
8nga
8nga
July 3rd, 2008 at 19:14
A fascinating and balanced series of posts - I’m not used to that lol My PvP experiences here will all be CoX related… well CoV. I’m a bad man at heart ^^
I agree largely with the vast percentage of whats been said already though. When it was pre-I9, PvP in zones was all about skill and attacking your opponent and out-thinking them, now its about how much you’ve farmed to get your build purpled up in order to be able to just squash anyone nearby. I myself do enjoy PvP in CoV and happily spend time in the PO / PocketD arena having relaxed matches with SG mates, friends and others as this seems to be the only way you don’t have the aggressive “ha ha I killed you in 3 seconds ya nub” element ruining it for the casual PvPer.
Its not necessarily about fighting a truly even playing field either, I’ve often fought matches which that specific char is out his depth and got splatted over and over, while still having a great time. That said there is nothing like having a fun rivalry go back and forth where it really is highly even (my main Starscreamer has just such a relationship with a brute called Onoclea Sensibilis as it happens).
Before I9 I used to do zonal PvP a lot with Starsoundwave a sonic/ice corr. I then stopped playing him a while as I made a more fun corr for PvE and when I came back to him about a month after I9’s release to take him back into Sirens Call with his mere SOs only, he had no chance even against the most poorly set-up defender just because of the horrendous advantage sets provide. Its why he’s still lvl 42 as I can’t be bothered to do anything with him or spend the hundreds of millions of infamy turning him back into a PvP contender. This is a key reason I switched to arena PvP almost exclusively.
Its also why I am redoing the “Starscreamer Invitational Tournament” again this year (sometime the weekend after DXP as it happens) in the arena as I like PvP thats at least partially fair while challenging at the same time. Its got many people psyched up because they themselves don’t PvP and know they have a chance of having fun in it which could be very well in part because I’ve stated clearly on the main UD site and forums that I’m setting matches on fairness and entertainment value for those spectating.
So the bag I’m (trying to) get to here is that it seems many prefer there to be a grain of control and fairness in the PvP fight rather than just have someone walk past and smack ya into the floor before you can even turn around.
This insane rant was brought to you by my own brand of insanity.
The Sinister Sinful Starscreamer
@Starscreamer
http://www.udsg.co.uk